Detecting Fake PM's

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Detecting Fake PM's

Postby warpig » Fri Oct 21, 2011 4:07 am

As requested by fexx, hopefully we can use this thread as a repository for detecting the fakes.

If buying a gold or silver bar from an untrusted source, investing in an ultrasonic thickness gauge is essential and typically costs less than £100. It works by measuring the speed at which sound travels through different materials. Each metal has it's own value and based on it's thickness should respond with a corresponding value. This site provides more information on this subject and as I understand goldmoney.com use a near similar technique to look for tungsten or other foreign metals in the bars in their custody.

http://about.ag/UltrasonicThicknessGauge.htm

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"There can be no other criterion, no other standard than gold. Yes, gold which never changes, which can be turned into ingots bars, coins, which has no nationality and which is eternally and universally accepted as the unalterable fiduciary value par excellence"

"Betting against gold is the same as betting on governments. He who bets on governments and government money, bets against 6,000 years of recorded human history."

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Re: Detecting Fake PM's

Postby Pixel8r » Fri Oct 21, 2011 9:00 am

For helping with detecting fake coins I have a set of these Fisch measures. They basically just tell you if a coin is the right size, thickness and weight.

http://www.fisch.co.za/home.htm

Watch on youtube.com


I got my set off ebay a few years back at a cost of £50.
"Money is Gold, and nothing else"
(As John Pierpont Morgan once stated under oath before the USCongress and the Pujo Commission in 1912)
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Re: Detecting Fake PM's

Postby fexx » Fri Oct 21, 2011 9:57 am

Thanks warpig, I hadn't heard of the ultrasonic detectors and thought a thread may be useful to anyone buying physical. (I remember the fisch detectors, I nearly bought some but ended up with a scale & micrometer as it was cheaper.)

I haven't bought any physical for quite a few years now (I now prefer either stocks or allocated PMs stored away from my place of residence due to the location!!), but when I did buy physical, I would;

- Check with a magnet, no PMs are magnetic.
- Check weight, if sovs are the right size and weight (and also have that identifiable 'chink'), they are unlikely to be fake.
- Don't buy anything individual item bigger than a couple of ounces. This way you are spreading the risk of buying a fake and can also check the density with a specific gravity test.
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Re: Detecting Fake PM's

Postby fexx » Fri Oct 21, 2011 9:58 am

How to test for fake PMs using specific gravity test.

Watch on youtube.com
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Re: Detecting Fake PM's

Postby Does Commute Abit » Fri Oct 21, 2011 1:16 pm

I've bought an ultrasonic unit.
A bit pushed for time, but will post some findings when it arrives
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Re: Detecting Fake PM's

Postby fitkid » Fri Oct 21, 2011 2:03 pm

The easiest fake to spot is written on paper and will have the letters ETF on it (ENTIRELY FOR TOTAL FOOLS).No testing kit required just half a brain.
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Re: Detecting Fake PM's

Postby azazel » Sat Oct 22, 2011 7:15 am

fitkid wrote:The easiest fake to spot is written on paper and will have the letters ETF on it (ENTIRELY FOR TOTAL FOOLS).No testing kit required just half a brain.


I thought ETF was expected to fail :mrgreen:

I check all my coins on some scales I got on ebay for about £12. They only weigh up to 50g but to 0.01 of a gram. The only fake i bought was on ebay, a Victorian silver crown in very good condition, but weighed 20 grams not 28.
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Re: Detecting Fake PM's

Postby fitkid » Sat Oct 22, 2011 8:10 am

Obviously knowledge about what you are looking at is extremely important.But l would always prferably purchase from a REPUTABLE SCOURCE and also do my own DUE DILLIGENCE as well.Traders are also susceptible to fake's.Recently in hockley I was in a dealers when a pawnbroker came in to cash his scrap and unclaimed Jewellery and £1200 of pawned chain was all plated worth nothing, he was not very happy.
When buying Au as scrap jewellery and to some degrees usefull for other forms.
1.use a magnet.if magnetic it is ferrous.
2.Use an eye glass look for hallmark.
3.use a file to remove potential plated gold.
4.test filed area with acid for purity.9,14,18,22,24k
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Re: Detecting Fake PM's

Postby warpig » Sat Oct 22, 2011 11:03 pm

I spent 8 years collecting medals and you would be amazed how inaccurate copies are. You would think they'd get it right, but they never have and we're talking about some medals that are between £5K and £100K, so big money really. For some reason they struggle with the die characteristics and so if you have a known example to compare against and armed with a jeweler's loupe, you can spot them a mile off. Look for key features of a coin and memorise them when looking at a questionable coin. They are likely to be close, but never perfect. Personally, I would never buy a particular type of coin from an unknown source, that I didn't already have an unquestionable original to compare against. My advice is if it looks questionable or you have any doubt walk away, your instincts are almost always correct.
"There can be no other criterion, no other standard than gold. Yes, gold which never changes, which can be turned into ingots bars, coins, which has no nationality and which is eternally and universally accepted as the unalterable fiduciary value par excellence"

"Betting against gold is the same as betting on governments. He who bets on governments and government money, bets against 6,000 years of recorded human history."

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Re: Detecting Fake PM's

Postby d2thdr » Sun Oct 23, 2011 9:37 am

I would assume that all PM bought from reputable dealers will be the real stuff. I do not think they would risk their reputation by passing on fakes without checking them first.

Or should I also invest in Fisch scales, ultrasound meters etc.?
In the world today there are only three assets, gold, oil and currencies. The paper currencies, so long admired and accepted are now in a war of self destruction. They will consume each other in an end battle of "I'm the last man standing but have lost all use as a unit of value".
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Re: Detecting Fake PM's

Postby Pixel8r » Sun Oct 23, 2011 10:54 am

d2thdr wrote:I would assume that all PM bought from reputable dealers will be the real stuff. I do not think they would risk their reputation by passing on fakes without checking them first.

Or should I also invest in Fisch scales, ultrasound meters etc.?

No I think buying from reputable dealers is sound, I bought my fisch set to check coins bought via ebay in the early days. I don't even bother to check coins bought from CID.
"Money is Gold, and nothing else"
(As John Pierpont Morgan once stated under oath before the USCongress and the Pujo Commission in 1912)
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Re: Detecting Fake PM's

Postby Schaublin » Sun Oct 23, 2011 12:23 pm

All the talk about "reputable dealers" is fine for someone unfamiliar with gold coins but after handling a few,only someone with impaired faculties would be duped by a fake. The density and "ring" of gold is impossible to duplicate. People have been using gold coins for trade for thousands of years without sophisticated measuring equipment. I smell a whiff of Nanny Statism here where people are unwilling to trust themselves and their own judgement. If it were possible to fool people with a substitute, gold would not have been used as money.

GOLD IS GOLD.

Cue Spandau Ballet.
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Re: Detecting Fake PM's

Postby warpig » Sun Oct 23, 2011 4:54 pm

It should be, but I guess, never say never... I have to say I've never checked anything I've had from CID or Guernsey Mint, all seems extremely legit to me.

d2thdr wrote:I would assume that all PM bought from reputable dealers will be the real stuff. I do not think they would risk their reputation by passing on fakes without checking them first.

Or should I also invest in Fisch scales, ultrasound meters etc.?
"There can be no other criterion, no other standard than gold. Yes, gold which never changes, which can be turned into ingots bars, coins, which has no nationality and which is eternally and universally accepted as the unalterable fiduciary value par excellence"

"Betting against gold is the same as betting on governments. He who bets on governments and government money, bets against 6,000 years of recorded human history."

Charles de Gaulle
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Re: Detecting Fake PM's

Postby triple-agent » Tue Nov 08, 2011 12:52 pm

Beware - the following fakes are springing up at markets and on ebay the mo (many of the sellers don't know themselves)

Q. How do I know these recent examples are fake?

A. All fail a simple magnetic test


Un Peso 1932 - Cuba

VN-Balboa 1934

Un Peso 1894 Guatemala

1947 MEXICO SILVER COIN 5 PESOS LARGE SILVER COIN

1871 USA Trade Dollar


All of these examples have been made to look slightly worn
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Re: Detecting Fake PM's

Postby triple-agent » Fri Nov 11, 2011 10:46 am

more on the above:

These coins are originally sold as 'nickel-silver' (which has 0% silver content: 65%Cu, 18%Ni, 17%Zn) copies, but since they do not bear the words 'COPY' on them, they are re-sold as the real thing.

Bear in mind that nickel is magnetic, hence these coins can easily be identified with a good magnet.

here is an 'honest' seller, with a trade dollar copy for sale: http://www.ebay.com/itm/USA-1884-TRADE- ... 25602d588c
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Re: Detecting Fake PM's

Postby triple-agent » Fri Nov 11, 2011 11:07 am

triple-agent wrote:../..
Un Peso 1932 - Cuba

VN-Balboa 1934

Un Peso 1894 Guatemala

1947 MEXICO SILVER COIN 5 PESOS LARGE SILVER COIN

1871 USA Trade Dollar


ALSO - all of these copied coins are marked with .900 / 900, coincidence eh?!

whilst the originals also have this marking, why is it that all of these FAKES are of coins with 900 on them?!

they are being faked on purpose
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Re: Detecting Fake PM's

Postby Kilham » Mon Nov 14, 2011 2:26 am

There wil be a shed somewhere in China pressing thousands on antiquated machinery.

Something else to keep you all paranoid: ;)

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Last edited by Pixel8r on Mon Nov 14, 2011 12:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Detecting Fake PM's

Postby fexx » Mon Nov 14, 2011 11:23 am

Kilham wrote:There wil be a shed somewhere in China pressing thousands on antiquated machinery.

Something else to keep you all paranoid: ;)


Great diagram Kilham - Got any tips on how I get the letters to look realistic?
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Re: Detecting Fake PM's

Postby Hooloovoo » Tue Nov 22, 2011 1:03 am

Some interesting tests here with Silver and magnets.

Silver is obviously not magnetic - but it is apparently Diamagnetic, roughly meaning that instead of being attracted to magnetic fields it is repelled by them and counteracts changes in the field.
Something like that, it is the first time I've heard about Diamagnetism - nevertheless the video is interesting:

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Re: Detecting Fake PM's

Postby azazel » Tue Feb 14, 2012 10:02 pm

Image
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Reason: fine tuned the images for you. :-)
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