Detecting Fake PM's

24Knews main news & discussion threads
Forum rules
Please read: 24Knews Forum Rules

Re: Detecting Fake PM's

Postby wee Jinky » Mon Mar 26, 2012 9:30 pm

the thickness of the shields edge is noticibly larger in the faked coin
and many of the lettering is missing the definition
Most modern numismatic fakes are gold they're just not old
If it has been cast in delft clay then there would need to have been a run off channel
which may account for the clip at the top of the coin in an effort to disguise the fact
The orange peel appearance of the surface doesnt ring true either
User avatar
wee Jinky
Half Krug Member
Half Krug Member
Progress to next rank:
1.4%
 
Posts: 961
Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2011 9:27 pm

Re: Detecting Fake PM's

Postby warpig » Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:35 pm

Watch on youtube.com
"There can be no other criterion, no other standard than gold. Yes, gold which never changes, which can be turned into ingots bars, coins, which has no nationality and which is eternally and universally accepted as the unalterable fiduciary value par excellence"

"Betting against gold is the same as betting on governments. He who bets on governments and government money, bets against 6,000 years of recorded human history."

Charles de Gaulle
User avatar
warpig
Platinum Poster
Platinum Poster
Progress to next rank:
15.1%
 
Posts: 3379
Joined: Sat Dec 05, 2009 12:46 am

Re: Detecting Fake PM's

Postby warpig » Sat Mar 31, 2012 11:22 pm

This is one thread that should remain vocal, so... come on id5, what do you say?
"There can be no other criterion, no other standard than gold. Yes, gold which never changes, which can be turned into ingots bars, coins, which has no nationality and which is eternally and universally accepted as the unalterable fiduciary value par excellence"

"Betting against gold is the same as betting on governments. He who bets on governments and government money, bets against 6,000 years of recorded human history."

Charles de Gaulle
User avatar
warpig
Platinum Poster
Platinum Poster
Progress to next rank:
15.1%
 
Posts: 3379
Joined: Sat Dec 05, 2009 12:46 am

Re: Detecting Fake PM's

Postby id5 » Sun Apr 01, 2012 6:03 pm

warpig wrote:What do you think to the areas I've highlighted in red here? ...

Hi Warpig, I would have responded sooner but I am really busy at work, which is good, but it leaves me little time to respond to forums.

The red items that you have highlighted on the pictures are more likely to be die failures. If it was cast copy which was possibility with 1909 Sovereign then the fine detail in the harp on the Guinea would not be present. Die failures happen all the time and more often in the past as the quality of the steel in the die was poor. The Royal Mint at the time the coin in the picture was produced was not very well controlled with both the Chief and Second Engraver about to retire. The French revolution and war with Britain meant a shortage of gold, arbitrage as well help to increase that shortage. It wasn’t until the early 1800’s that the Mint got back to producing good quality coin.
There are 10^11 stars in the galaxy and we used to call them astronomical numbers, now they are just economical numbers
User avatar
id5
Silver Eagle Member
Silver Eagle Member
Progress to next rank:
42.2%
 
Posts: 229
Joined: Sun Dec 20, 2009 9:05 am

Re: Detecting Fake PM's

Postby id5 » Sun Apr 01, 2012 6:04 pm

warpig wrote:
Watch on youtube.com


The video is OK but if your coin has any numismatic value then do not hit it with another coin nor run one acid test using the same spot as I have said before you will end up with an invalid result.
There are 10^11 stars in the galaxy and we used to call them astronomical numbers, now they are just economical numbers
User avatar
id5
Silver Eagle Member
Silver Eagle Member
Progress to next rank:
42.2%
 
Posts: 229
Joined: Sun Dec 20, 2009 9:05 am

Re: Detecting Fake PM's

Postby warpig » Sun Apr 01, 2012 9:38 pm

Hi id5,

No worries, thanks for the reply.

The first image is what I would class as a cud die flaw from a 1946 penny, which is typically caused by a dent in the die. The bottom image is a true die [flaw|crack] that has been transposed on to the planchet of a proof Tennessee state quarter.

Image
Image

Just for the record, die flaws can be caused by over use of the die (limited lifespan) or over polishing. They can also be progressive.

Whilst I take your points on board, hopefully the images above illustrate that die flaws relate to isolated areas and in my experience, do not globally effect the definition of a coin. Whilst you cite the strings of the harp as a reason for this coin not being cast, I would suggest it still lacks credible definition and is yet another example of why this coin was cast. IMO, there isn't a single area on that coin that mirrors a known original. Every single letter, every single line, dot and raised surface has a problem with it as far as I can tell.

Sorry my view clashes with yours, but having spent many years collecting medals, I've learnt to ONLY trust items that mirror known examples 100%, it should effectively look like a photocopy. For me, this coin is somewhere in the 5% bracket.

My advice to anyone who's interested is, don't make excuses for coins not matching a known original, just walk away and find one that does. I've seen it hundreds of times where people want to believe a piece is authentic because they [believe|like|trust] the person who's selling it. My advice is buy the coin and not the story. If you do stumble across what appears to be a bargain and it seems worth the risk, it probably isn't. If it seems too good to be true, it probably is...

id5 wrote:Hi Warpig, I would have responded sooner but I am really busy at work, which is good, but it leaves me little time to respond to forums.

The red items that you have highlighted on the pictures are more likely to be die failures. If it was cast copy which was possibility with 1909 Sovereign then the fine detail in the harp on the Guinea would not be present. Die failures happen all the time and more often in the past as the quality of the steel in the die was poor. The Royal Mint at the time the coin in the picture was produced was not very well controlled with both the Chief and Second Engraver about to retire. The French revolution and war with Britain meant a shortage of gold, arbitrage as well help to increase that shortage. It wasn’t until the early 1800’s that the Mint got back to producing good quality coin.
"There can be no other criterion, no other standard than gold. Yes, gold which never changes, which can be turned into ingots bars, coins, which has no nationality and which is eternally and universally accepted as the unalterable fiduciary value par excellence"

"Betting against gold is the same as betting on governments. He who bets on governments and government money, bets against 6,000 years of recorded human history."

Charles de Gaulle
User avatar
warpig
Platinum Poster
Platinum Poster
Progress to next rank:
15.1%
 
Posts: 3379
Joined: Sat Dec 05, 2009 12:46 am

Re: Detecting Fake PM's

Postby triple-agent » Mon Apr 02, 2012 10:44 pm

User avatar
triple-agent
Half Krug Member
Half Krug Member
Progress to next rank:
70.7%
 
Posts: 1618
Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2009 9:20 pm

Re: Detecting Fake PM's

Postby warpig » Mon Apr 02, 2012 11:24 pm

It's hard to tell from those photos, but the deliberate scratches and lack of patina ring alarm bells. Plus all of his auctions are marked as private, so I would guess it's a fake.

The new Chinese fakes are going to be very good... One of the classic mistakes, is not perfectly lining up the obverse and reverse of the coin, this is pretty easy to check.
"There can be no other criterion, no other standard than gold. Yes, gold which never changes, which can be turned into ingots bars, coins, which has no nationality and which is eternally and universally accepted as the unalterable fiduciary value par excellence"

"Betting against gold is the same as betting on governments. He who bets on governments and government money, bets against 6,000 years of recorded human history."

Charles de Gaulle
User avatar
warpig
Platinum Poster
Platinum Poster
Progress to next rank:
15.1%
 
Posts: 3379
Joined: Sat Dec 05, 2009 12:46 am

Re: Detecting Fake PM's

Postby triple-agent » Tue Apr 03, 2012 7:10 am

warpig wrote:It's hard to tell from those photos, but the deliberate scratches and lack of patina ring alarm bells. Plus all of his auctions are marked as private, so I would guess it's a fake.

The new Chinese fakes are going to be very good... One of the classic mistakes, is not perfectly lining up the obverse and reverse of the coin, this is pretty easy to check.


here's the real mc'coy: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1825-George-I ... 43ae068156

the former coin looks like it was minted last week!
User avatar
triple-agent
Half Krug Member
Half Krug Member
Progress to next rank:
70.7%
 
Posts: 1618
Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2009 9:20 pm

Re: Detecting Fake PM's

Postby azazel » Tue Apr 03, 2012 8:07 am

Considering the limitations they had with the technology of 1825, the design of those old coins is truly fantastic. It puts our modern coins to shame, not just in the metals used.
User avatar
azazel
Silver Eagle Member
Silver Eagle Member
Progress to next rank:
64.4%
 
Posts: 323
Joined: Sun Dec 06, 2009 5:44 pm

Re: Detecting Fake PM's

Postby warpig » Tue Apr 03, 2012 9:31 am

That's because it was! :D

Have a look here as well. http://toolhaus.org/cgi-bin/negs?User=2 ... eceived+by

Unless Pixel8r beats me to it... when I get a bit of time I'll put the E-Bay fake and this original into Photoshop for a visual comparison of both the obverse and reverse so we can see in terms of detail, how good this fake is. It certainly isn't cast and at a casual glance it looks right...

triple-agent wrote:here's the real mc'coy: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1825-George-I ... 43ae068156

the former coin looks like it was minted last week!
"There can be no other criterion, no other standard than gold. Yes, gold which never changes, which can be turned into ingots bars, coins, which has no nationality and which is eternally and universally accepted as the unalterable fiduciary value par excellence"

"Betting against gold is the same as betting on governments. He who bets on governments and government money, bets against 6,000 years of recorded human history."

Charles de Gaulle
User avatar
warpig
Platinum Poster
Platinum Poster
Progress to next rank:
15.1%
 
Posts: 3379
Joined: Sat Dec 05, 2009 12:46 am

Re: Detecting Fake PM's

Postby triple-agent » Tue Apr 03, 2012 10:43 am

i reported the fake to ebay - we'll see what happens
User avatar
triple-agent
Half Krug Member
Half Krug Member
Progress to next rank:
70.7%
 
Posts: 1618
Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2009 9:20 pm

Re: Detecting Fake PM's

Postby Pixel8r » Tue Apr 03, 2012 11:46 am

triple-agent wrote:i reported the fake to ebay - we'll see what happens

Bet they will do nothing, they don't care as long as they get their fees.
"Money is Gold, and nothing else"
(As John Pierpont Morgan once stated under oath before the USCongress and the Pujo Commission in 1912)
User avatar
Pixel8r
Founder
Founder
Rhodium Rocket
Rhodium Rocket
 
Posts: 18266
Joined: Fri Dec 04, 2009 4:16 pm
Location: South West UK

Re: Detecting Fake PM's

Postby id5 » Fri Apr 06, 2012 9:45 am

warpig wrote:Hi id5,

No worries, thanks for the reply.
...
Just for the record, die flaws can be caused by over use of the die (limited lifespan) or over polishing. They can also be progressive.

Whilst I take your points on board, hopefully the images above illustrate that die flaws relate to isolated areas and in my experience, do not globally effect the definition of a coin. Whilst you cite the strings of the harp as a reason for this coin not being cast, I would suggest it still lacks credible definition and is yet another example of why this coin was cast. IMO, there isn't a single area on that coin that mirrors a known original. Every single letter, every single line, dot and raised surface has a problem with it as far as I can tell.
...
My advice to anyone who's interested is, don't make excuses for coins not matching a known original, just walk away and find one that does. I've seen it hundreds of times where people want to believe a piece is authentic because they [believe|like|trust] the person who's selling it. My advice is buy the coin and not the story. If you do stumble across what appears to be a bargain and it seems worth the risk, it probably isn't. If it seems too good to be true, it probably is...


Hi Warpig, another busy week for me but at least it is a short one.

Your pictures of die failures are not material because they are made of modern metal alloys.

At the time that the 1795 Sovereign in the picture was produced Western Europe could only produce wrought iron, high carbon iron was available as a by-product but practically unusable. Case harden iron would have been used for the dies and that fractures and crumbles giving the failures in the picture.

At that time in history the knowledge of how to produce steel was limited to India and China and such a secret that we still do not know how to re-produce the same steel it today.


Your scepticism of difference from an original is a good one and will save a lot of people from buying fakes but only works for Western coins after the mid 1800’s when quality in both materials and process improved from the Industrial Revolution.
There are 10^11 stars in the galaxy and we used to call them astronomical numbers, now they are just economical numbers
User avatar
id5
Silver Eagle Member
Silver Eagle Member
Progress to next rank:
42.2%
 
Posts: 229
Joined: Sun Dec 20, 2009 9:05 am

Re: Detecting Fake PM's

Postby id5 » Fri Apr 06, 2012 9:48 am

triple-agent wrote:
warpig wrote:It's hard to tell from those photos, but the deliberate scratches and lack of patina ring alarm bells. Plus all of his auctions are marked as private, so I would guess it's a fake.

The new Chinese fakes are going to be very good... One of the classic mistakes, is not perfectly lining up the obverse and reverse of the coin, this is pretty easy to check.


here's the real mc'coy: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1825-George-I ... 43ae068156

the former coin looks like it was minted last week!


The former coin looks like a FDC Proof, they do exist and from 1825 not that rare. I cannot tell from the picture if it has been cleaned as the resolution is too low. Pity the other two images are showing unavailable in Photobucket.
There are 10^11 stars in the galaxy and we used to call them astronomical numbers, now they are just economical numbers
User avatar
id5
Silver Eagle Member
Silver Eagle Member
Progress to next rank:
42.2%
 
Posts: 229
Joined: Sun Dec 20, 2009 9:05 am

Re: Detecting Fake PM's

Postby warpig » Fri Apr 06, 2012 12:04 pm

Hi id5,

This is in danger of becoming a very good thread, lots of good information here. Keep it coming... :thumbup:

OK, I take your point about the quality of steel used to produce the dies, but I still beg to differ, as the coins should still look roughly the same and they don't. I've reposted the comparison photo I produced before. I'm not sure if you know, but the mint would produce a mother die and from that, all daughter dies are produced which they use to strike the planchet, i.e. there is always a master copy of the die. I find it difficult to believe they would allow such poorly struck coins to leave the mint, when they can just take another daughter die out of the safe and strike perfect copies again. Even back then, they still had to maintain a high level of quality, after all counterfeit coinage is as old as coinage itself...

From the picture below, irrespective of the quality of the steel used to produce the dies, clearly a perfect coin could be produced in 1795. I'm afraid I'm still firmly in the camp of, this is a fake.

Image

id5 wrote:Hi Warpig, another busy week for me but at least it is a short one.

Your pictures of die failures are not material because they are made of modern metal alloys.

At the time that the 1795 Sovereign in the picture was produced Western Europe could only produce wrought iron, high carbon iron was available as a by-product but practically unusable. Case harden iron would have been used for the dies and that fractures and crumbles giving the failures in the picture.

At that time in history the knowledge of how to produce steel was limited to India and China and such a secret that we still do not know how to re-produce the same steel it today.


Your scepticism of difference from an original is a good one and will save a lot of people from buying fakes but only works for Western coins after the mid 1800’s when quality in both materials and process improved from the Industrial Revolution.
"There can be no other criterion, no other standard than gold. Yes, gold which never changes, which can be turned into ingots bars, coins, which has no nationality and which is eternally and universally accepted as the unalterable fiduciary value par excellence"

"Betting against gold is the same as betting on governments. He who bets on governments and government money, bets against 6,000 years of recorded human history."

Charles de Gaulle
User avatar
warpig
Platinum Poster
Platinum Poster
Progress to next rank:
15.1%
 
Posts: 3379
Joined: Sat Dec 05, 2009 12:46 am

Re: Detecting Fake PM's

Postby warpig » Fri Apr 06, 2012 12:14 pm

I just wanted to point out, most people (99.96%) don't clean their historic coins, the patina or tarnish is considered part of it's history and adds credence to it's originality. Patina can be faked with chemicals, but it still looks unnatural, the tone of the tarnish is wrong and too even. One of the keys to detecting the fakes is to ask yourself, did it take nearly 200 years to look like that, or did 200 years of ageing happen quite quickly... If anyone tells you the coin was dipped which explains it's `new look` and lack of polishing marks, they're probably a liar. :liar:

id5 wrote:The former coin looks like a FDC Proof, they do exist and from 1825 not that rare. I cannot tell from the picture if it has been cleaned as the resolution is too low. Pity the other two images are showing unavailable in Photobucket.
"There can be no other criterion, no other standard than gold. Yes, gold which never changes, which can be turned into ingots bars, coins, which has no nationality and which is eternally and universally accepted as the unalterable fiduciary value par excellence"

"Betting against gold is the same as betting on governments. He who bets on governments and government money, bets against 6,000 years of recorded human history."

Charles de Gaulle
User avatar
warpig
Platinum Poster
Platinum Poster
Progress to next rank:
15.1%
 
Posts: 3379
Joined: Sat Dec 05, 2009 12:46 am

Re: Detecting Fake PM's

Postby Schaublin » Fri Apr 06, 2012 1:52 pm

id5 wrote:
warpig wrote:Hi id5,

No worries, thanks for the reply.
...
Just for the record, die flaws can be caused by over use of the die (limited lifespan) or over polishing. They can also be progressive.

Whilst I take your points on board, hopefully the images above illustrate that die flaws relate to isolated areas and in my experience, do not globally effect the definition of a coin. Whilst you cite the strings of the harp as a reason for this coin not being cast, I would suggest it still lacks credible definition and is yet another example of why this coin was cast. IMO, there isn't a single area on that coin that mirrors a known original. Every single letter, every single line, dot and raised surface has a problem with it as far as I can tell.
...
My advice to anyone who's interested is, don't make excuses for coins not matching a known original, just walk away and find one that does. I've seen it hundreds of times where people want to believe a piece is authentic because they [believe|like|trust] the person who's selling it. My advice is buy the coin and not the story. If you do stumble across what appears to be a bargain and it seems worth the risk, it probably isn't. If it seems too good to be true, it probably is...


Hi Warpig, another busy week for me but at least it is a short one.

Your pictures of die failures are not material because they are made of modern metal alloys.

At the time that the 1795 Sovereign in the picture was produced Western Europe could only produce wrought iron, high carbon iron was available as a by-product but practically unusable. Case harden iron would have been used for the dies and that fractures and crumbles giving the failures in the picture.

At that time in history the knowledge of how to produce steel was limited to India and China and such a secret that we still do not know how to re-produce the same steel it today.


Your scepticism of difference from an original is a good one and will save a lot of people from buying fakes but only works for Western coins after the mid 1800’s when quality in both materials and process improved from the Industrial Revolution.


Don't want to derail the thread but just wanted to point out that steel was being used in edged weapons in Europe for thousands of years - just the same as in India and China. Furthermore, the initial use of iron can probably be credited to the Hittites (Anatolia) and the Indo-Europeans (Aryans) and the knowledge was taken East.
User avatar
Schaublin
Silver Eagle Member
Silver Eagle Member
Progress to next rank:
48.1%
 
Posts: 254
Joined: Fri Dec 04, 2009 11:06 pm

Re: Detecting Fake PM's

Postby id5 » Fri Apr 06, 2012 2:31 pm

warpig wrote:Hi id5,
This is in danger of becoming a very good thread, lots of good information here. Keep it coming... :thumbup:


The more we share knowledge the better we become unless that knowledge is about the treachery of loved ones and harms us.

Can’t remember where that is from

warpig wrote:Hi id5,

I find it difficult to believe they would allow such poorly struck coins to leave the mint, when they can just take another daughter die out of the safe and strike perfect copies again. Even back then, they still had to maintain a high level of quality, after all counterfeit coinage is as old as coinage itself...

From the picture below, irrespective of the quality of the steel used to produce the dies, clearly a perfect coin could be produced in 1795. I'm afraid I'm still firmly in the camp of, this is a fake.


There were no safes back then Warpig, just wooden boxes with padlocks, safes didn't really beging to appear until the early 1800’s.

Perfect coins were not produced at the time. The coin in question was minted during the nadir of the British Mint. Quality was so bad in fact that Tower Mint had even stopped production of copper coin some 20 years earlier, more than half of silver coin was fake. There was no point in faking gold coin though because arbitrage on gold to the rest of Europe with the return in silver would net you far more. Good quality coin was not produced until Boulton started producing coin under license in 1797 and it was Boulton who started the production of what you would call a perfect coin from automation by using steam power.
There are 10^11 stars in the galaxy and we used to call them astronomical numbers, now they are just economical numbers
User avatar
id5
Silver Eagle Member
Silver Eagle Member
Progress to next rank:
42.2%
 
Posts: 229
Joined: Sun Dec 20, 2009 9:05 am

Re: Detecting Fake PM's

Postby id5 » Fri Apr 06, 2012 2:57 pm

warpig wrote:I just wanted to point out, most people (99.96%) don't clean their historic coins, the patina or tarnish is considered part of it's history and adds credence to it's originality. Patina can be faked with chemicals, but it still looks unnatural, the tone of the tarnish is wrong and too even. One of the keys to detecting the fakes is to ask yourself, did it take nearly 200 years to look like that, or did 200 years of ageing happen quite quickly... If anyone tells you the coin was dipped which explains it's `new look` and lack of polishing marks, they're probably a liar. :liar:

As Warpig points out it a patina is considered a part of a coins history but beware that a patina can be added more easily than taking a patina away. Adding a patina will hide what is underneath, removing one shows the true surface and often the etching of the chemical solution to remove the patina. The really smart will just use salt and aluminium to electrically clean the oxidisation away and it leaves very little trace but you have to wax the coin afterwards to repel any moisture and that does leave a trace.

By 1825 when the coin in question was minted every Western mint had steam power and was polishing a large number of coins before striking them to show just how good their product was. This automation also meant that until a coin was circulated it was unlikely to have been touched by human hands so there was no transfer of oils to corrode the surface. If that untouched coin was kept in a dark, acid free, sulphur free environment it will remain bright.
There are 10^11 stars in the galaxy and we used to call them astronomical numbers, now they are just economical numbers
User avatar
id5
Silver Eagle Member
Silver Eagle Member
Progress to next rank:
42.2%
 
Posts: 229
Joined: Sun Dec 20, 2009 9:05 am

PreviousNext

Return to Main Discussion Forum

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests