Detecting Fake PM's

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Re: Detecting Fake PM's

Postby id5 » Fri Apr 06, 2012 4:39 pm

Schaublin wrote:
Don't want to derail the thread but just wanted to point out that steel was being used in edged weapons in Europe for thousands of years - just the same as in India and China. Furthermore, the initial use of iron can probably be credited to the Hittites (Anatolia) and the Indo-Europeans (Aryans) and the knowledge was taken East.


You not derailing it for me Schaublin, I like metal :D

There were certainly iron weapons in Western Europe from about 800BC and in other cultures a lot further back to the 14th century BC. Steel for blades was known and there were many types but how to make good blocks of steel thick enough to make a die block was not known until the 19th century.

Early iron swords were just wrought iron with a tempered edge. Metal smiths then learnt to increase the amount of carbon diffused into the surface of slim pieces of steel by heating it with bone and charcoal, then the trick of quenching. Later Pattern welding made Damascene style stronger blades by mixing iron and mild steel, and by 800AD they were wonders but only owned by the very rich, think Ferraris. The fabulously wealthy owned Damascene swords made from Indian crucible steel, think Bugatti Veyron. The majority were a slim sliver of steel forge-welded between to thicker pieces of iron for strength and then tempered.

The world really had to wait until the mid-1800’s and Bessemer to get good blocks of steel for dies that would not fracture and crumble.
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Re: Detecting Fake PM's

Postby triple-agent » Fri Apr 06, 2012 4:46 pm

id5 wrote:.../..
By 1825 when the coin in question was minted every Western mint had steam power and was polishing a large number of coins before striking them to show just how good their product was. This automation also meant that until a coin was circulated it was unlikely to have been touched by human hands so there was no transfer of oils to corrode the surface. If that untouched coin was kept in a dark, acid free, sulphur free environment it will remain bright.



id - your knowledge of coins is far greater than mine, and what you say re. keeping the coin bright etc. is possible of course, but how probable is it that this seller (who has been caught out before) has genuinely come across this coin which has never been touched and kept in the dark for all these years?

i have my doubts, but take on board what you say
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Re: Detecting Fake PM's

Postby warpig » Fri Apr 06, 2012 10:19 pm

I don't think it matters whether they kept the daughter dies in a safe or a safe room, the point is they had other daughter dies they could swap the exhausted die for. The coin on the right of my previous post is what I am classifying as a perfect coin and by that, I mean a genuine Royal Mint created coin with the definition you would expect from any mint. The quality was achievable as we have a known example above and whilst there might not have been any financial incentive to forge the coin in 1795, there certainly is now.

That coin IMO has all the hallmarks of a sand cast forgery. The mottled surface is the most immediate hint. I suspect if you had that coin in your hand you would either find a hint of the spew, seam or file and polishing marks around the edge. I suspect you'd also find that the obverse and reverse do not line up as they should.

Would you buy this coin?

id5 wrote:There were no safes back then Warpig, just wooden boxes with padlocks, safes didn't really beging to appear until the early 1800’s.

Perfect coins were not produced at the time. The coin in question was minted during the nadir of the British Mint. Quality was so bad in fact that Tower Mint had even stopped production of copper coin some 20 years earlier, more than half of silver coin was fake. There was no point in faking gold coin though because arbitrage on gold to the rest of Europe with the return in silver would net you far more. Good quality coin was not produced until Boulton started producing coin under license in 1797 and it was Boulton who started the production of what you would call a perfect coin from automation by using steam power.
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Re: Detecting Fake PM's

Postby warpig » Fri Apr 06, 2012 10:35 pm

Agreed whilst possible, it's highly improbable. Occam's razor...

triple-agent wrote:id - your knowledge of coins is far greater than mine, and what you say re. keeping the coin bright etc. is possible of course, but how probable is it that this seller (who has been caught out before) has genuinely come across this coin which has never been touched and kept in the dark for all these years?

i have my doubts, but take on board what you say
"There can be no other criterion, no other standard than gold. Yes, gold which never changes, which can be turned into ingots bars, coins, which has no nationality and which is eternally and universally accepted as the unalterable fiduciary value par excellence"

"Betting against gold is the same as betting on governments. He who bets on governments and government money, bets against 6,000 years of recorded human history."

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Re: Detecting Fake PM's

Postby id5 » Sat Apr 07, 2012 3:30 pm

triple-agent wrote:...
id - your knowledge of coins is far greater than mine, and what you say re. keeping the coin bright etc. is possible of course, but how probable is it that this seller (who has been caught out before) has genuinely come across this coin which has never been touched and kept in the dark for all these years?

i have my doubts, but take on board what you say

A difficult question triple-agent, that such coins exist is far more probable that you would think but I would really want to see the coin to grade it myself although the missing high quality photos would go quite a way to alleviating any concern that I might have.

FDC proofs of milled coins are far from unknown, some are rarer than others. In 10 minutes of looking I have found you a nice uncirculated William IV shilling http://www.amrcoins.com/coins-for-sale/G-0001-MS41/ and a George IV 1825 Proof Shilling with a Spink provenance http://www.saltfordcoins.com/featured/13504
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Re: Detecting Fake PM's

Postby id5 » Sat Apr 07, 2012 3:34 pm

warpig wrote:...
Would you buy this coin?
...

I don’t think that the coin is a fake and would buy it if I had a need for it.

It is not worth purchasing on a numismatic basis as it only has a bullion value.

As I said in the coin thread on the other site, if you are buying for bullion purposes then only buy what you have planned to sell, know you can sell and where you can sell it.
It is not a Sovereign or Britannia so attracts CGT, only a bullion or scrap dealer would take it quickly. To me it would have to be offered at -33% spot price for me to make money on it and remain within the tax law.
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Re: Detecting Fake PM's

Postby warpig » Sat Apr 07, 2012 3:50 pm

OK, we'll just have to disagree on this one, I wouldn't buy it.

id5 wrote:I don’t think that the coin is a fake and would buy it if I had a need for it.
"There can be no other criterion, no other standard than gold. Yes, gold which never changes, which can be turned into ingots bars, coins, which has no nationality and which is eternally and universally accepted as the unalterable fiduciary value par excellence"

"Betting against gold is the same as betting on governments. He who bets on governments and government money, bets against 6,000 years of recorded human history."

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Re: Detecting Fake PM's

Postby triple-agent » Wed Sep 26, 2012 3:31 pm » Firefox 15.0.1 Firefox 15.0.1  Windows XP Windows XP  Screen Resolution: 1024 x 600 1024 x 600

not really pm's but funny all the same:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ws/eBayISAPI. ... SS:GB:1123
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Re: Detecting Fake PM's

Postby triple-agent » Wed Feb 13, 2013 5:23 pm » Firefox 18.0 Firefox 18.0  Windows Vista Windows Vista  Screen Resolution: 1280 x 1024 1280 x 1024

this seller is honest, but beware as the coin states otherwise!

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1oz-round-x-5 ... 2a292ea2f5

Image

see here for more details:

https://www.kitcomm.com/archive/index.php?t-104525.html
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Re: Detecting Fake PM's

Postby warpig » Wed Feb 13, 2013 5:38 pm » Google Chrome 23.0.127 Google Chrome 23.0.127  Windows Seven Windows Seven  Screen Resolution: 1680 x 1050 1680 x 1050

It's important everything is checked. As soon as you make excuses for the piece you're on a slippery slope IMO. If there's even the slightest variance, send it back.
"There can be no other criterion, no other standard than gold. Yes, gold which never changes, which can be turned into ingots bars, coins, which has no nationality and which is eternally and universally accepted as the unalterable fiduciary value par excellence"

"Betting against gold is the same as betting on governments. He who bets on governments and government money, bets against 6,000 years of recorded human history."

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Re: Detecting Fake PM's

Postby triple-agent » Sun Mar 10, 2013 9:39 pm » Safari Mobile 4.0 Safari Mobile 4.0  Android Android  Screen Resolution: 480 x 854 480 x 854

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Re: Detecting Fake PM's

Postby triple-agent » Sun Mar 10, 2013 9:40 pm » Safari Mobile 4.0 Safari Mobile 4.0  Android Android  Screen Resolution: 480 x 854 480 x 854

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Re: Detecting Fake PM's

Postby warpig » Sun Mar 10, 2013 9:47 pm » Google Chrome 25.0.136 Google Chrome 25.0.136  Windows Seven Windows Seven  Screen Resolution: 1680 x 1050 1680 x 1050

Do you think it's a scam?
"There can be no other criterion, no other standard than gold. Yes, gold which never changes, which can be turned into ingots bars, coins, which has no nationality and which is eternally and universally accepted as the unalterable fiduciary value par excellence"

"Betting against gold is the same as betting on governments. He who bets on governments and government money, bets against 6,000 years of recorded human history."

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Re: Detecting Fake PM's

Postby triple-agent » Sun Mar 10, 2013 10:15 pm » Safari Mobile 4.0 Safari Mobile 4.0  Android Android  Screen Resolution: 480 x 854 480 x 854

warpig wrote:Do you think it's a scam?


technically speaking no, but the seller has at least three accs and does short term listings to conclude on sun night. he/she is preying on the unobservant buyer. also worth noting which bars are being 'faked'
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Re: Detecting Fake PM's

Postby warpig » Sun Mar 10, 2013 10:25 pm » Google Chrome 25.0.136 Google Chrome 25.0.136  Windows Seven Windows Seven  Screen Resolution: 1680 x 1050 1680 x 1050

OK got ya!

triple-agent wrote:technically speaking no, but the seller has at least three accs and does short term listings to conclude on sun night. he/she is preying on the unobservant buyer. also worth noting which bars are being 'faked'
"There can be no other criterion, no other standard than gold. Yes, gold which never changes, which can be turned into ingots bars, coins, which has no nationality and which is eternally and universally accepted as the unalterable fiduciary value par excellence"

"Betting against gold is the same as betting on governments. He who bets on governments and government money, bets against 6,000 years of recorded human history."

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Re: Detecting Fake PM's

Postby triple-agent » Fri Mar 15, 2013 12:30 am » Safari Mobile 4.0 Safari Mobile 4.0  Android Android  Screen Resolution: 480 x 854 480 x 854

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Re: Detecting Fake PM's

Postby Ignorance Was Bliss » Fri Mar 15, 2013 9:43 am » Google Chrome 25.0.136 Google Chrome 25.0.136  Windows Vista Windows Vista  Screen Resolution: 1280 x 800 1280 x 800




I have knowingly purchased about 15 various layered bars and coins as a decoy stash that are "hidden" in my sock drawer. They were all acquired for about £2.00 each and I consider them a good investment.

With regards to the 10 x Pan American bars in the link above, I'm not sure why anyone would pay £56.00 for this auction. It seems unlikely that a bidder wouldn't read the description and it seems rather expensive for a decoy stash, I think it more likely that the bidders are looking to purchase these with the intention of selling them as genuine in the future (maybe during a possible mania phase :pray: when the herd are clamouring for silver).
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Re: Detecting Fake PM's

Postby warpig » Fri Mar 15, 2013 10:03 am » Google Chrome 25.0.136 Google Chrome 25.0.136  Windows Seven Windows Seven  Screen Resolution: 1680 x 1050 1680 x 1050

Do you remember where you bought them? That's a good price.

Ignorance Was Bliss wrote:I have knowingly purchased about 15 various layered bars and coins as a decoy stash that are "hidden" in my sock drawer. They were all acquired for about £2.00 each and I consider them a good investment.
"There can be no other criterion, no other standard than gold. Yes, gold which never changes, which can be turned into ingots bars, coins, which has no nationality and which is eternally and universally accepted as the unalterable fiduciary value par excellence"

"Betting against gold is the same as betting on governments. He who bets on governments and government money, bets against 6,000 years of recorded human history."

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Re: Detecting Fake PM's

Postby Ignorance Was Bliss » Fri Mar 15, 2013 10:13 am » Google Chrome 25.0.136 Google Chrome 25.0.136  Windows Vista Windows Vista  Screen Resolution: 1280 x 800 1280 x 800

warpig wrote:Do you remember where you bought them? That's a good price.

Ignorance Was Bliss wrote:I have knowingly purchased about 15 various layered bars and coins as a decoy stash that are "hidden" in my sock drawer. They were all acquired for about £2.00 each and I consider them a good investment.



Yes, they were all bought on ebay about 8 months ago, mostly sunshine bars.
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Re: Detecting Fake PM's

Postby warpig » Fri Mar 15, 2013 10:21 am » Google Chrome 25.0.136 Google Chrome 25.0.136  Windows Seven Windows Seven  Screen Resolution: 1680 x 1050 1680 x 1050

OK thanks.
"There can be no other criterion, no other standard than gold. Yes, gold which never changes, which can be turned into ingots bars, coins, which has no nationality and which is eternally and universally accepted as the unalterable fiduciary value par excellence"

"Betting against gold is the same as betting on governments. He who bets on governments and government money, bets against 6,000 years of recorded human history."

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